1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,020 Welcome to the deep dive if you're here you're looking for that shortcut that 2 00:00:04,020 --> 00:00:07,240 inside track to being well-informed about some of the most 3 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:12,710 Fascinating corners of the digital world and today we are really digging into a 4 00:00:12,710 --> 00:00:14,280 piece of internet history 5 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:19,160 We've got a great stack of source material here on a system called ant fill right 6 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:21,180 and fill and this isn't just you know 7 00:00:21,180 --> 00:00:23,480 A quick look back at some old retired platform 8 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:28,420 We are talking about what the community calls the Queen mum of weblog hosting 9 00:00:28,420 --> 00:00:29,040 systems 10 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:31,040 it's a perfect description it's this a 11 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:35,290 Really venerable veteran of the internet that's been running on open source code 12 00:00:35,290 --> 00:00:39,160 since 2001 and it's written primarily in server-side JavaScript 13 00:00:39,160 --> 00:00:43,400 Which is interesting in itself. It's a remarkable story of just staying power. The 14 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:44,920 mission was never super complex, right? 15 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:47,400 It was just to be a simple site hosting system 16 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:51,160 That's also you know high performance and packed with features exactly and our goal 17 00:00:51,160 --> 00:00:54,560 today is to help you the listener really understand how this 18 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:59,460 This vintage architecture, let's call it not only survives but actually thrives in 19 00:00:59,460 --> 00:01:01,200 the age of modern frameworks 20 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:05,670 We want to make the tech accessible especially for beginners before we jump in and 21 00:01:05,670 --> 00:01:07,560 unpack this piece of internet history 22 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:09,560 Just a quick word from our supporter 23 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:14,010 This deep dive is brought to you by safe server safe server handles the hosting for 24 00:01:14,010 --> 00:01:16,400 this kind of software and they support you in your 25 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,480 Digital transformation you can find a lot more information at 26 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:24,760 WWW safe server dot DE. Yeah. Okay. Let's start with that immediate appeal 27 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:29,260 The first thing a beginner sees in the source material is this promise of well 28 00:01:29,260 --> 00:01:30,320 instant creation 29 00:01:30,320 --> 00:01:34,960 The German description it says you're still in Zier eigene website mit ein paar 30 00:01:34,960 --> 00:01:35,640 mouse clicks 31 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:39,940 Create your own site with a few mouse clicks for a system from 2001 32 00:01:39,940 --> 00:01:42,920 What does that simplicity actually mean today? 33 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:47,160 Well, it translates to the really unique fusion of simplicity on the one hand and 34 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,480 and industrial strength scalability on the other 35 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,920 Okay, the easy entry point means anyone can get started 36 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,940 You don't have to grapple with you know, complex database setups or server configs, 37 00:01:56,940 --> 00:01:59,000 but that simplicity is a bit deceptive 38 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:03,240 Also because the sources are very clear that Antville is built to host tens of 39 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:04,320 thousands of blogs 40 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,040 The only real limit is the hardware you throw at it tens of thousands 41 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,220 I mean that really challenged the idea that you need some massive modern 42 00:02:11,220 --> 00:02:16,930 Distributed system to handle scale it does and that's why that Queen mom nickname 43 00:02:16,930 --> 00:02:18,960 is so fitting. It's foundational 44 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:23,480 It speaks to a level of engineering, you know foresight back in the early 2000s 45 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:24,600 that just prioritized 46 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:29,580 Efficiency and we can see it's still running the original official installation Merced 47 00:02:29,580 --> 00:02:31,460 XC by one is on version 48 00:02:31,460 --> 00:02:35,920 And it's been going for over two decades and crucially. It's not some museum piece. 49 00:02:35,920 --> 00:02:37,000 It's not frozen in time 50 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:42,440 The system is demonstrably alive, right? Yeah, the usage metrics prove it right now 51 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:46,680 It's hosting three thousand four hundred and one websites in total of those one 52 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,040 thousand five hundred and sixty are public 53 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:53,440 That's a really substantial active community the strength of that community really 54 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:55,400 proves that the system works 55 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,540 But what I found really striking was the kind of content. It's not just tech 56 00:02:58,540 --> 00:03:00,240 chatter, which you know, you might expect 57 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,840 It's a complete snapshot of life and that breadth of content 58 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,720 I think reflects the platform stability because it's simple and it's reliable 59 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:12,040 It becomes this the safe home for these incredibly diverse communities. You see it 60 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:13,800 everywhere in the activity logs 61 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:18,760 We saw timestamps showing posts appearing just at 21 minute 21 minutes ago 62 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:22,720 It's immediate and the topics range from like high culture 63 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:27,480 We saw posts on composers to time art Katil Bjornstad right next to the daily grind 64 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:32,400 People posting about their Arbeet still their job or their enormous workload 65 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,820 Yeah, and then you see the deeper stuff which gives you real insight into the 66 00:03:35,820 --> 00:03:36,380 ecosystem 67 00:03:36,380 --> 00:03:39,700 It supports these very sensitive new communities 68 00:03:39,700 --> 00:03:44,890 For instance, there's activity from an Asperger SSG a self-help group for autistic 69 00:03:44,890 --> 00:03:45,760 men over 40 70 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:50,770 Wow, and you also see these very serious sometimes difficult reflections on health 71 00:03:50,770 --> 00:03:51,640 like a discussion about 72 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:57,530 Suicide off-grund PTBS suicides due to PTSD which is being actively updated by 73 00:03:57,530 --> 00:04:00,700 users like Simon's and you contrast that deep personal stuff 74 00:04:00,740 --> 00:04:06,240 With pure technical utility. I saw a post detailing we man AKW cool term grundremming 75 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,220 how to demolish nuclear cooling tower 76 00:04:08,220 --> 00:04:11,980 Exactly. So you have tech experts who have book lovers planning their bucure list 77 00:04:11,980 --> 00:04:13,040 2025 and 78 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:17,040 Specialized support groups all living on the same platform the takeaway for you 79 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:21,590 The listener is that Antville has fostered this really dedicated grassroots 80 00:04:21,590 --> 00:04:22,280 community 81 00:04:22,280 --> 00:04:27,800 It's driven by users like bubo HDW Simon's they're posting all the time and their 82 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,460 commitment is even visible in how the platform is funded 83 00:04:30,460 --> 00:04:32,460 It is the transparency is amazing 84 00:04:32,460 --> 00:04:37,080 The platform has a message please support and Phil and it shows the current balance 85 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,440 for the quarter when we checked it was almost a thousand 86 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:41,640 euros 87 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:46,040 964 thousand 69 so it's not corporate money. It's direct community support 88 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:51,450 It's pure dedication when users find a stable easy home for their interests. They'll 89 00:04:51,450 --> 00:04:52,480 sustain it for decades 90 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,390 It's that simple that long-term commitment is it's just fascinating but it brings 91 00:04:56,390 --> 00:04:58,840 up the big question, especially for today's web developers 92 00:04:58,840 --> 00:05:04,380 Yeah, how can a system from 2001 running server-side JavaScript compete with modern 93 00:05:04,380 --> 00:05:05,680 optimized frameworks? 94 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:10,120 Isn't this just a beautiful relic? What's the secret to its stability? 95 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,500 That is the perfect question and to answer it 96 00:05:12,500 --> 00:05:16,210 We have to look past the language itself and focus on the architecture. The secret 97 00:05:16,210 --> 00:05:17,120 is the foundation 98 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:22,260 It's a thing called the Helma object publisher or HLV. So while Antville is yeah 99 00:05:22,260 --> 00:05:25,300 97.7 percent JavaScript Helma is the engine 100 00:05:25,300 --> 00:05:29,160 It's this powerful open-source web application server written in Java 101 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:33,480 Oh, so you have this super stable Java server as the the load-bearing structure 102 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:37,920 Managing everything and then the anvil JavaScript code runs on top of it precisely 103 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:39,500 if anvil is the house 104 00:05:39,500 --> 00:05:44,870 Helma is the rock-solid foundation and the plumbing and the real architectural 105 00:05:44,870 --> 00:05:45,520 magic 106 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,840 The key concept for a beginner to grasp is its use of something called hop objects 107 00:05:49,840 --> 00:05:52,380 hop objects sounds specific 108 00:05:52,380 --> 00:05:56,240 What does that mean? It's central to everything and it's surprisingly elegant 109 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:00,640 So, you know how most modern systems use something like an ORM to translate code 110 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,440 into database commands, right object relational mapping 111 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:05,160 Well Helma takes it a step further 112 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:09,240 It lets developers define these hop objects in their JavaScript code and the Helma 113 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:11,540 server automatically maps those objects 114 00:06:11,540 --> 00:06:14,160 Directly to your database tables. Wait, hang on 115 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,640 So if I define a new type of content say a recipe object in my code 116 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:21,220 Yep, the system just knows how to save it and get it from the database without me 117 00:06:21,220 --> 00:06:22,760 writing a bunch of SQL commands 118 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:27,400 Exactly that you get this massive reduction in what we call database boilerplate 119 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:27,640 code 120 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:32,750 You manage all your data using this clean object model right inside your JavaScript. 121 00:06:32,750 --> 00:06:33,840 It simplifies development 122 00:06:33,840 --> 00:06:38,080 But more importantly, it makes maintenance so much cleaner and for an open-source 123 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,200 project that relies on volunteers 124 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:44,160 I guess reducing complexity is everything. That's how you get longevity 125 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,400 It's the whole ballgame and that proves that a really smart architectural idea can 126 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,520 be more important than just using the newest programming language 127 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:55,140 Okay, so that connects directly to another technical insight from the sources, 128 00:06:55,140 --> 00:06:57,560 right? Yeah something about URLs. Yes 129 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,360 This is the really fascinating part. Halma enforces a rule 130 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:07,020 The URL space, you know, the web addresses has to mirror a strict hierarchical 131 00:07:07,020 --> 00:07:07,560 structure 132 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,320 It's almost exactly like the document object model the DOM that client-side 133 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:12,400 JavaScript uses 134 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,960 So the structure of your data objects actually dictates the structure of the public 135 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:17,320 URLs 136 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,680 How does that yeah, what's the benefit there? 137 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,440 It forces clean information architecture think about it in a lot of modern systems 138 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,640 routing is the separate messy thing that can get really inconsistent 139 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:31,920 But because Helma is object centric the way you define a hop object in the database 140 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,120 Inherently defines the URL path you use to get to it 141 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:41,080 So if a user's blog is defined under a say a parent community object, the URL 142 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:42,320 automatically becomes 143 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,320 Like community users blog it's built in predictable routing 144 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:50,770 It simplifies the developer experience dramatically and it makes everything easier 145 00:07:50,770 --> 00:07:51,480 to maintain 146 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,720 It's a great example of an early design philosophy that tightly couple structure 147 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:56,640 and presentation 148 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:01,510 In a way that frankly a lot of modern decoupled systems struggle to replicate cleanly. 149 00:08:01,510 --> 00:08:03,200 That's the real insight here 150 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,440 Longevity isn't just about being old 151 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:10,180 It's about making these foundational choices like hop objects and the DOM like URLs 152 00:08:10,180 --> 00:08:12,600 that just naturally promotes stability 153 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,920 And the barrier to entry is still so low if you want to try it out 154 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:20,160 You just need HOP and a standard database like MySQL or Postgres school and how 155 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,320 many even comes with its own web server jetty 156 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,840 So you don't have to install something separate just to get started 157 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:29,800 It's a whole self-contained system and the community on github 6 contributors 10 158 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:30,200 forks 159 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:34,710 They say the code base is of and I'm quoting here stable quality and ready for 160 00:08:34,710 --> 00:08:36,260 production deployment 161 00:08:36,260 --> 00:08:39,960 It's a vintage system, but it's absolutely ready for prime time 162 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:45,600 This has been a true deep dive into and fill the queen mum of weblog hosting 163 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,920 You've seen it achieves this incredible performance and supports this huge 164 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,220 dedicated community all through 165 00:08:51,220 --> 00:08:56,150 Architectural brilliance. That's right. It's all about the hop object system, which 166 00:08:56,150 --> 00:08:59,360 just eliminates all the database boilerplate and streamlines development 167 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:04,180 It's a powerful lesson in how smart design choices from decades ago can lead to 168 00:09:04,180 --> 00:09:05,520 superior longevity 169 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,220 Which leaves us with our final thought for you to consider 170 00:09:08,220 --> 00:09:12,350 Yeah, Helma's design philosophy connects the database structure directly to the URL 171 00:09:12,350 --> 00:09:15,960 space. It forces this clear hierarchical architecture 172 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,930 Hmm. So as you're designing your next project with all the latest decoupled 173 00:09:18,930 --> 00:09:19,440 frameworks 174 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:21,920 Ask yourself this are the complexities you've added 175 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:26,160 Actually providing a net gain over the simplicity and the inherent structural 176 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:28,120 clarity you get from an architecture 177 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:33,100 Where the URL path is the object path? It's a great question a question of you know 178 00:09:33,100 --> 00:09:35,240 efficiency versus complexity 179 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:40,570 What simplicity are we sacrificing just to chase? What's new a perfect question to 180 00:09:40,570 --> 00:09:40,920 end on? 181 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:45,160 Thank you for joining us for this deep dive and a final. Thank you to our supporter 182 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:46,120 safe server 183 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:50,360 They make these explorations possible by providing reliable hosting and support for 184 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:51,240 your digital transformation 185 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,960 Find them at 186 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:58,280 We'll catch you next time for another deep dive.